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I have two questions that are heavily linked, the first pertains to a specific subset of wayward individuals (perhaps so specific I won't find an someone able to respond)—those who have experienced no tangible consequences for their affairs. Do you, perhaps buried deep within, subconsciously view your situation as a win?

When I refer to "tangible consequences," I mean individuals who may have concealed their affairs from most people, thereby avoiding societal shame, not losing friends, maintaining the respect of their children, and preserving their marriage. They also faced no financial repercussions either. This is what I mean by having no tangible consequences.

To elaborate further, if you had an affair and were caught, but your partner chose to reconcile—keeping your indiscretion from being exposed publicly—and you utilized this opportunity to engage in couples counseling, ultimately improving your relationship, you might find that despite the pain of guilt and shame, you have emerged with a stronger partnership. In this scenario, you faced no real consequences and carry the memories of an affair that you initially enjoyed, leading to a complex emotional landscape.

From a psychological perspective, while many wayward individuals may eventually express deep regret and remorse for their actions, it's essential to acknowledge the initial emotional gratification that often accompanies such decisions. The brain's reward system, particularly involving the release of dopamine, can create intense feelings of excitement, connection, and pleasure during an affair. Even if you feel remorse after witnessing the pain on your partner’s face, it's plausible that the positive associations created during the affair linger—contributing to a cognitive dissonance that complicates feelings of guilt. Presumably, you would still retain those memories of excitement and rush as they happened, forming an internal conflict between pleasure and pain.

However, I must note that the notion of consequence-free reconciliation might provoke a more significant psychological dilemma. While some individuals may find that witnessing the pain in their partner’s eyes serves as a motivator to change their ways, this does not apply universally. Human behavior often reflects a deeper psychological pattern: we tend to learn through consequences. If one navigates an affair without facing real repercussions, it could unwittingly reinforce detrimental behaviors. This is where the brain's neural pathways come into play—without sufficient consequence, one may inadvertently establish a pattern of thought that associates infidelity with positive outcomes: "If things get tough in a relationship, engaging in an affair can lead to improvement."

This thought process is typically subconscious, but it reveals a potential trap: the brain may begin to encode infidelity as a viable coping mechanism rather than a source of conflict. The absence of tangible consequences can distort the moral compass and reinforce unhealthy behavioral patterns, ultimately complicating the process of personal growth and relationship dynamics.

I recognize that it would require a very honest wayward to answer this, but I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on this psychological interplay. How do you reconcile the initial thrill of an affair with the potential for future relational conflicts, especially in an environment where past actions continue to echo within your psyche?

The second question, more broadly, irrespective of whether you faced consequences or not - whether you felt you required tangible consequences' in your case specifically to change - would you encourage betrayed partners to enforce them in their circumstance?

Again, when referring to enforcing consequences, tools often citied may be insisting their wayward partner inform the other betrayed spouse, parents or children. Perhaps move out for a specified period of time.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:46 AM, Friday, May 2nd]

WS ONLY

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:04 PM, Saturday, May 3rd]

DRSOOLERS

Do you, perhaps buried deep within, subconsciously view your situation as a win?

whether you felt you required tangible consequences' in your case specifically to change - would you encourage betrayed partners to enforce them in their circumstance?

For context, I ended my A in 2016 and have not confessed to my wife.

In no way do I feel that I won anything unless you view having the moniker of cheater associated with you as a win.

I've had a lot of time to reflect on what I did, how I got there and where I am now. When consequences are mentioned, none of them amount to much unless the WS really feels remorse for what they've done and is willing to put the hard work in to try and fix what is broken.

Certainly I never had to look into my wife's eyes and witness the pain of my betrayal but I did have to look into my own. To know that I did the one thing I swore I never would. To betray the one person who always had my back. To put everything at risk for someone who was as broken as I was. The period of self reflection and realization of what I did was some of the darkest periods of my life.

Certainly if I could go back in time and ignore that FB message, I would do it in a nanosecond.

The second question, more broadly, irrespective of whether you faced consequences or not - whether you felt you required tangible consequences' in your case specifically to change - would you encourage betrayed partners to enforce them in their circumstance?

I think most consequences of an affair are natural ones. I don’t think of any of my husbands actions in the aftermath to be purposefully punitive. I would encourage any new bs to be protective of themselves, not to play the pick me dance, and any other healthy thing we tell people to do on here.

I think a lot of people who have an affair regret it and have to take a lot of time to heal from their own actions. That and any fallout experienced are just simply natural. You we thoughtless to the person who you married. Nothing is owed to you and you went in as a grown up knowing there might be fallout even if you push the thoughts away and not think deeply on it.. If you can earn it back, thats a miracle and you should thank your lucky stars, so in my book if that meant that some people now may have their judgements about me and I have lost credibility ten that’s what I did.

And mending those relationships also take intention. A ws who can redeem themselves with most of those people have come a long way in who they are, their capacity to cope and enjoy normal life more, and so I see those consequences as being a gift. The affair isn’t, that should never have happened. But facing consequences often helps many of us to do some deep and long self reflection. So yes, I would encourage the bs to react naturally and authentically. I would never encourage a bs to abuse. A bs has newly learned and says hateful things excluded of course.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:18 PM, Friday, May 2nd]

For context, I ended my A in 2016 and have not confessed to my wife

That's a very interesting situation. I'm curious, do you feel genuinely content with the love you share with your wife? Personally, I'd struggle with the feeling that the foundation of the relationship was somehow false. Knowing what happened in 2016, she might react in any number of ways – her feelings for you could change, and she might choose to leave.

I've always found the 'take it to the grave' approach perplexing. Beyond the significant ethical consideration of your wife's agency in the relationship, I personally couldn't find peace in your situation. The thought that the love I've received for the past eight or nine years might be contingent on a lack of complete honesty, and might not exist if I were entirely truthful, would be deeply unsettling.

It seems to highlight a certain 'wayward' mentality, in a way. It's similar to how I've never understood the satisfaction some people find in cheating during friendly games or quizzes. While financial stakes might offer a different, albeit less pure, motivation for bending the rules, the 'victory' itself feels hollow if it's based on deception. Where's the genuine satisfaction in a pretended win?

On a personal level, lying in bed with my partner and hearing 'I love you,' I can imagine the recurring thought: 'Would you say that if you knew the full truth?' I'd be thinking I haven't experienced real love for 8 years. I'd need that, selfishly or not.

Of course, your wife's love for you likely encompasses many facets beyond just fidelity. However, for a significant number of people, fidelity is such a fundamental pillar of trust that its absence can undermine everything else. Ultimately, neither you nor I can definitively know how your wife would perceive this until there's disclosure.

Please understand, this isn't a moral judgment or an urging for you to confess. That's a deeply personal decision for you to make. I'm more generally interested in your perspective on my thoughts.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:32 AM, Saturday, May 3rd]

I think most consequences of an affair are natural ones

Could you define natural ones for context here?

I used examples of consequences such as

-insisting their wayward partner inform the other betrayed spouse

-Informing their parents or children.

-Perhaps move out for a specified period of time.

Would you define these as natural?

I would never encourage a bs to abuse. A bs has newly learned and says hateful things excluded of course.

I feel it almost goes with out saying - but for absolute clarity - agreed

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:30 AM, Saturday, May 3rd]

DRSOOLERS

I agonized over the decision to confess for a very long time. Something a BS said to me changed my perspective and decision to confess.

People here often say she has the right to know. But she also has the right to not know.

I asked myself, who benefits from my confession? Perhaps I would in that I would no longer be carrying this secret. Certainly not my wife. Denying her agency sounds great on paper; giving her the agency everyone here talks about means endless mind movies, pain, sadness and a life blown apart. No one has every made a compelling argument as to how this is a better outcome for my wife.

While I will always feel remorse for cheating, I've made my peace with staying silent.

Yes I define any reaction from a bs natural. If they want to separate, divorce, if they want to inform the other bs, want transparency, require you get help, whatever it is. That train left the building when you negated your promises and did whatever you wanted to them. You do not get to dictate the terms of how the bs copes, what they need for safety, or whether they stay in the marriage.

Most ws just push away what might happen if their spouse finds out. They tell themselves they won’t find out, or they feel the marriage is over. These things are just justifications to do what they want to do.

You inflict trauma on someone you don’t have any control of what it is they want or need or feel. They are the one who is acting out in the open, honestly, to your reprehensible actions. There maybe feelings of wanting to punish the ws but in all reality I have read things from thousands of bs and what I see in most is someone simply struggling to navigate the bomb that just went off in their life. They aren’t out informing the obs or leaving because they want to. They are trying to regain some sense of control and order to their life post apocalypse.

It might surprise you, or you may find it hard to believe, but I feel the way a lot of ws suffer the most is inside their own head about their actions. My husband really did nothing that even touched the hell that already was in my head. And in my book those are all factors as to why I worked so hard to be introspective and that continues 8 years later. I am no longer in the pain that I was, but there is still enough there that I continue to strive for amends. Not just with him, but everywhere. All the good I can do may never balance out that culpability that lives in me, I don’t know if I will ever forgive myself. I have learned to love the person I have become and I act with compassion, assertiveness, integrity, and protect my happiness. I try and help others and the well of love and compassion extends to others in the human experience. But I have come to accept that burned out valley will always live in the geography of my heart along with the good things that have been built since.

Had I murdered someone, I would see prison as a natural consequence. In my book, murder and adultery reside on the same list for a reason. That seems very dark, but I truly have a life I am filed with gratitude for all at the same time. It’s very hard to describe the balance that one has to come to in order to continue on and I can only imagine that I inflicted worse on my husband, and to a woman I never met.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:21 PM, Saturday, May 3rd]

Hikingout

Can you please expound on this:

1. Women often cheat looking for emotional connection. I don’t think many who had affairs would say that’s at all what they got.

My ww often made the statement that "it fulfilled nothing I was craving".
I have had a hell of a time wrapping my brain around that.

Lost1313

I am sorry Lost1313. I just want to start with that. I can’t imagine the pain you are in and I admire that you are trying to work through it without closing yourself off or adding to your wife's pain.

I agree with what HikingOut wrote but I am going to offer a different way of thinking about some affairs. This may or may not be relevant to your wife; I’m adding this in case it helps someone else.

Why do husbands get such a different treatment in the bedroom than affair partners? It's like they are a different person completely. Do husbands not deserve to be treated just as well?

There is nothing I "deny" my husband in the bedroom; I am eager to please him. But there was inarguably a different energy around the affair and for a long time that was hurtful to him and perplexing to both of us. I did not want to want the AP, but my interactions with him felt compulsive and out of control.

A woman who has participated in abusive sex, either as the victim or as the perpetrator (or as typical, the victim who becomes the perpetrator), may find things sexually exciting or compulsive that seem very strange. That is what was happening for me.

When my husband and I first started dating at 17 years old, I had several years’ experience of promiscuity which began with attention seeking from boys around age 11, included a rape (and pregnancy) at 13, and then four years of pretty extreme promiscuity and self destructive behavior. When I was 17 something in me decided that I wanted out of that life, and I told my husband when we began dating that "sex is about power, and I don’t want that anymore. I want something different." However, the deep grooves had been laid, and since I didn’t do anything to heal them, they lay dormant.

I believe that sex can be about intimacy, or it can be about power. Intimacy is God’s plan. Power is how sex operates in the system of mammon. For a woman, engaging in the system of power can be exhilarating and humiliating. Sex becomes a way to get the thing that she wants: false intimacy, without vulnerability? Avoiding victimization? Worship from a man?

With the AP, I wanted the power to be the victimizer. I don’t want that power over my husband. But I was also afraid of intimacy. I am now trying to recover or more precisely discover sex as intimacy, with my husband. If you pray, please pray for that, for me and my husband.

I think that this operates on a spectrum, from the wayward wife who engages in activities that are so mild as to be arguably not infidelity to the extreme. It's all in the same ballpark. If you want to see the extreme, I highly recommend the new Met Opera’s production of R. Strauss’s Salome, which will be showing in theaters Saturday May 18 or available through their website a few months following. In this production, the Dance of the Seven Veils is not a seduction of Herod in order to accomplish the will of her mother, but rather a recalling of seven previous ages of Salome and the specific kind of abuse she suffered at the hand of Herod at each age, with the final 16 year old turning into a sociopathic abuser who sings a thrilling lovesong to the decapitated John the Baptist. If you want to know about the energy behind some wayward wives’ affairs, listen to that lovesong, and ponder the thrill that a serial killer must feel when they succumb to the urge to murder. It took my husband a while to understand that although I felt compelled to engage in those kinds of interactions, I didn't want to, and I desperately wanted help out of it.

I think for a long time I rejected both sex as power and sex as intimacy. That’s probably where a lot of wayward women end up. They experience a bit of the sex as power feeling, for one reason or another decide that it’s not good for them (and/or the people around them) and then put the whole thing up on a shelf, engaging in just enough sex to keep their husband at bay. I was pretty good in the just enough sex to keep my husband at bay, I had a lot of skills and sex was like a handshake, I could send my mind somewhere else very easily. Thank God that is over.

I also agree with what pippin wrote and many of the things she wrote was true for me as well. It’s worth noting that the majority of ws that I have spoke to over the years had sexual abuse in their history. It does lend itself to seeing sex as a way of getting positive attention and the ease of disassociation that often follows.

Trey- I think that many people start affairs in an innocuous way. It’s starts by talking to someone more than you should, and it simply feels good someone is interested in you. So what ends up happening, or did to me, was it becomes this desire to be seen a certain way. It’s all validation that I have talked about before. But it’s on steroids because it’s like looking at yourself through this different lens. They become the audience and validator of this image you are trying to project. In my mind it was "being seen" but in all reality it was just two people projecting something on the other person. Telling each other what they want to hear, and little discernment over truth. There was a thread recently and I think you and I both participated in it about being seen. I gave a pretty deep explanation of it there.

Whatever you think you ar getting in an affair is often not what you end up getting. There is just this whole narrative you are building that is pure fantasy and escapism. The bubble pops and whatever depression or issue you were having before is just way way bigger and harder to navigate.

Hikingout

Can you share that thread please?

This question is for the FWS that reconciled their relationship/marriage.

To what length did you go to comfort your BS?

I'm a year past DDay and I feel like I'm alone with the burden my WW forced upon me. She'll ask if I'm okay, but even if I answer that I am not okay, I only get the answer "do you want to talk about it". Sometimes I do, but most times I'm so damned flooded I don't. I wish at that point she would lean in a little harder to at least comfort the situation.

Just stuck in a loop of confusion of where I stand. I know we are definitely not in R, but making small steps to it. I am just really frustrated and confused right now and trying to get clarity if I should stick it out for a while longer or take steps to leave.

I think linking to posts is against guidelines but the post was called wht does it mean to be seen and it was in general forum not so many pages back.

So the only bad thing about trying to answer your question Brennan about helping my husband is I wasn’t very good at it the first year. Sometimes people take that comparison as "well, hiking got her shit together and maybe I am not patient enough"

1. I am not proud about not being able to be as good at that at first.

2. Everyone is different. Your wife may continue to improve, she may never improve. No way for me to know.

I can only say for me, the first six months was really a lot of confusion for me. I had rewritten our marriage. I had blamed him for my resentments. I had no idea if we could really pull the thing back together. I was really messed up after my affair for longer than I should have been. I look back and realize just how mentally sick I was, and I understand how I got there. But those reasons didn’t bode well for our reconciliation at first.

I had been a martyr in our marriage. I had taken all thise sacrifices and saw them as unreturned. I had to anger him to red my mind I guess. But I had been avoidant since childhood. I didn’t have the tools within me to know how to handle other peoples emotions. I had walked round with toxic shame since I was young. What that manifests into I always feeling inept, having issues surrounding vulnerability, and not knowing how to sit with someone who is having big emotions. My MO was basically shit it down. I had no idea the ways I used to invalidate others feelings.

So in getting myself straightened up I had no real skills to deal with him. I would do and way things I was learning on this forum but it was a lot of fumbling around. My mother and sister had been very angry toxic people when I ws growing up and it made me hate anger. When my husband was angry it triggered the fuck out of me. I would catastophize it as what are we even trying for he hates me.

I kept trying though. And a I started piecing together a deeper self awareness I did get better and better at it. My relationships with everyone evolved and changed. And I stopped being so scared to face things, deal with things. I would say that it started in earnest around month ten. He asked for a divorce and we went to in-house separation while we prepared to tell our grown kids and sell the house.

I am not saying do that either. But when he did it two things dawned on me. One, I didn’t want a divorce. 2. Two, I would survive it if that’s what I had to do.

Those two things made me less afraid. I leaned into saying well, I will honor what he wants but I want to stay in this path of working in myself. I want to heal and grow and be better. With all the pressure off all our interactions I really started to look at things more objectively. I was very receptive to whatever he asked for and we tolk a few weeks apart. He was traveling for work and we were very low contact.

And I got better at sitting with him. I had really started understanding and trying to mitigate the things about me that led me to where I was standing. And I just felt softer somehow. I had made this mess and I was going to clean it up. However that looked. After all we were always going to be in each others lives, we had a Family together. It was a short period of this and he called off the divorce and separation. He felt like my cooperation felt compelling. He he said he felt like he saw flickers of the woman he had been married to for decades.

After that, I started bringing up the affair. Being proactive about trying to repair the relationship.

It isn’t that I did nothing the first year. I did the basics before. I was being transparent, I was honest and truthful, I was in therapy and reading whatever I could get my hands on. I was here in the forum getting my ass kicked but taking in everything I could. I simply could not see past my pain enough, did not have the bandwidth that I wish I did.

I look back at that time in my life and realize how distorted my thinking really was. I have had the gift of a wonderful husband and didn’t know what to do with him. I didn’t appreciate him nearly as much as I should have. And that wasn’t all the marriage leading into the affair but maybe the couple of years before my terrible management of my inner world was really causing these deep fissures.

They say when you diet that you need to be patient because you didn’t gain all the weight at once. I feel like that’s a little like anything we recover from. I didn’t go from a faithful loving wife to a cheating, cold person overnight. And I didn’t go from a cold cheating person to a great wife and partner overnight.

However, none of what I just said has to factor into your decision. I do not have a crystal ball. It’s understandable for you to reach your limits here at any time. In some ways I think how reconciliation happens is the ws changes before all the love the bs has is destroyed. More of the damage lots of times happens after the affair sometimes and you do not have to put yourself up for sacrifice. If it’s not getting better it’s okay to take your space temporarily or permanently.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:50 PM, Tuesday, May 6th]